Jump to content

Chevy Spark E.V. Origin Sparks Debate


Recommended Posts

Chevy Spark E.V. Origin Sparks Debate

Wards Auto, Vince Courtenay

General Motors’ announcement Wednesday it will bring an electric version of the Chevrolet Spark minicar to the U.S. in 2013 has some industry observers wondering from where the vehicle will originate.

Some media are reporting the EV will come from South Korea, where gasoline- and diesel-powered Sparks currently are produced. If so, that’s news to the folks at GM Korea.

GM Korea does not have a prototype of the Spark EV, and “no location of production has been decided yet,” a spokesman tells WardsAuto. He also says there is no EV activity at the GM minicar production complex, located in Changwon, the sole source for the Spark.

READ MORE HERE

Link to post
Share on other sites

Chevy Spark E.V. Origin Sparks Debate

Wards Auto, Vince Courtenay

General Motors’ announcement Wednesday it will bring an electric version of the Chevrolet Spark minicar to the U.S. in 2013 has some industry observers wondering from where the vehicle will originate.

Some media are reporting the EV will come from South Korea, where gasoline- and diesel-powered Sparks currently are produced. If so, that’s news to the folks at GM Korea.

GM Korea does not have a prototype of the Spark EV, and “no location of production has been decided yet,” a spokesman tells WardsAuto. He also says there is no EV activity at the GM minicar production complex, located in Changwon, the sole source for the Spark.

READ MORE HERE

Thanks for the info

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 11 months later...

Hi folks . . .

All the reports I've read indicate that the Spark EV will, indeed, be built in South Korea. Batteries are lithium iron phosphate

(LiFePO4) from A123 Systems and will be manufactured in Michigan. Interestingly, this is an exact reversal of Chevy's Volt,

which is built stateside and uses South Korean LG Chem batteries. Below are a few Chevy Spark EV web articles . . .

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1067261_gm-officially-confirms-2013-chevy-spark-minicar-spark-ev-electric-version

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Spark#Spark_EV

http://www.hybridcars.com/news/chevrolet-spark-ev-will-be-made-south-korea-43108.html

http://www.yumasun.com/articles/spark-80173-electric-make.html

http://www.chevroletvoltage.com/index.php/volt-blog/18-volt/2663-chevy-spark-ev-hikes-big-bear-to-make-the-grade.html

Benjamin Nead

Tucson, Arizona, USA

Link to post
Share on other sites

I would have thought they would get most of a knockdown kit and add the electric parts here in the US where they are building Volts. They already build "complete" knockdown kits of the Spark for import into countries that require a certain percentage of assembly in country to avoid stiff import taxes, it should have been a simple thing to leave out the powerplant and central computer and add these things here in the USA.

Then again building the powerplant and shipping it to Korea would also get the job done.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, Greg, it's always a mystery to me as to why and where OEMs assemble cars like this . . . building one part here,

another part there and then putting it all together somewhere else. My basic concern regardingt the Spark EV is

that Chevy will actually makes it easy to buy.

Nissan's Leaf is about the only pure EV (ie: no gasoline ranger extender) that is generally available across the US.

Many manufacturers are announcing pure EVs and only selling them in California in limited numbers. This is simply

to comply with that state's mandate, which basically dictates that a certain percentage of each manufacturer's vehicles

sold there have to obtain zero emissions from the tailpipe. The auto manufacturers, thus, make just enough of a

certain model (maybe around 2000 or so) with an electric motor and offer them there exclusively. These are now referred

to by those of us in the EV community as "compliance cars." Let's hope the Spark EV isn't going to be just another

one of those.

The batteries that I anticipate the Spark EV with have is these . . .

http://www.greencarc...t-20120612.html

http://insideevs.com...ry-heat-issues/

This is the A123 cell that was recently tested to 167° F and showed no appreciable loss in storage capacity.

Batteries, in general, don't like heat and some of the lithium ion formulas have been faring better than others.

Nissan, for instance, is having problems with batteries in their Leafs sold here in Arizona, where I live.

Phoenix, in particular, is a rough environment. Daytime temperatures can get near 120° F, but the "heat island"

effect of sun-exposed blacktop typically means that a parked car might be exposed to 130° F or more . . .

enough to kill a conventional Lithium Ion cell.

So, in addition to seeing if the Spark EV is really going to be sold here in Arizona, I'm watching press releases

closely in regards to batteries and related thermal management systems for the pack.

Benjamin Nead

Tucson, Arizona, USA

Link to post
Share on other sites

It's certainly interesting to see how auto makers are manufacturing vehicles to comply with California. I've been reading reports on how Nissan is upset with the sales of the Leaf, after a pretty good launch. It would be interesting to see how well the Focus Electric is doing, but I don't think Ford breaks out their totals for Focus .vs. Focuc Electric.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The other side of the coin is how well these cars do in the cold. Lithium performance drops pretty fast below freezing, add to that the requirement for cabin heat to keep the windows clear and the driver alive and they aren't very practicle in the northern freeze areas. Might bring back the old gasoline fired heaters that were common on Volkswagen campers and German military vehicles (Unimog). A liquid propane, CNG, or hydrogen powered hybrid would make more sense in the cold areas, fire up the engine for heat and to warm the batteries, switch to battery when warm enough and draw heat from the pack, run with both when you need even more heat.

Too bad the fuel Spark didn't have a small electric assist system, just something to add a couple extra horsepower for starting from a stop, sudden accelleration needs, and going up hills. An extra 10 electric horsepower under these conditions should put the average mpg up past 50 for me and probably closer to 60. A pair of 5 horsepower brushless motors built into the rear hubs and a small battery pack under the rear seat should be able to do what I want. It would give the added ability to work with the traction control and stability control systems by adding power to the outside rear wheel instead of just braking on the inside rear wheel for stability. For traction putting both rear wheels in drive would certainly help the front wheels stay locked to the ground. Of course this sounds so simple that everyone so, "yeah, why didn't they do that"... I'm sure there is some kind of good reason and it probably has to do with an exposed motor and of course cost. I bet the full electric Spark is not going to be a $13,000 car.

Edited by Greg_E
Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, guys, lot's to chew on here . . .

I'll dispense with hydrogen right off the bat by saying that it's the power source of the future . . . and, unfortunately, destined always to be so. There are so many problems with it that it will be years before we'll see it close to being affordable and reliable. I wish the technology well. When it gets here, it will be marvelous. The reality may not be as gloom and doom as the below linked article (which is a few years old,) but it gets you thinking about what's still ahead on a technical level . . .

http://www.thenewatl...e-hydrogen-hoax

Getting back to the present day (real) world of battery electric cars. . .

The whole California compliance EV issue is very frustrating to watch, if you're wanting to see a choice of EVs in the marketplace. The Leaf is the only pure EV out there right now that's generally available to buy at most dealerships in the lower 48 and Hawaii (not sure about Alaska.) Ford's Focus EV generally looks nice, but I know a fellow locally who has had a deposit down since this this spring and they're still telling him "soon." All in all, I think there's something like 100 or less Focus EVs around the US right now. The number's are similar for the little Mitsubishi i.

I had the opportunity to live with a Nissan Leaf for about 3 weeks this past summer (borrowed from a friend while he was vacationing out of town) and I found it to be marvelous for my needs. What has to be understood is the limited range means that this is going to be mostly a city bound vehicle. My daily mileage requirements are around 30 or so . . . far within the Leaf's range on a single charge. Most of them are sold as 2nd cars in 2 car households and this, again, is how I used it: as a stand in for my ancient Saturn. The other thing one has to remember is that, while the time it takes to recharge may seem ponderously long, it's something that can be done at home and during off hours. Since I'm not an EV owner (yet,) I don't have the 240V equipment that would speed up the process. But 120V proved quite suitable. I'd plug in at around 8PM most evenings and - even on house current - it was ready to go by about 6AM the next morning. This all happens, of course, while you're sleeping. Public 240V charging is also available in Tucson, but slow in arriving in some parts of the country. I used a couple of these public EVSE terminals while I had use of the Leaf, but it's surprising how few times I really thought it to be necessary. Charging at home was mindlessly simple and eminently convenient.

Temperature extremes are an issue. The Leaf has been in the news because many Arizona owners and lessees - especially in (always hotter than Tucson) Phoenix - were experiencing premature battery capacity loses. Nissan hedged for most of the summer in regards to giving their customers a proper response, but they're working through these issues far better now. It remains to be seen what the 2013 model (manufactured in Tennessee and due out in December) will have going for it. The 2011 & '12 Leafs used nothing but passive cooling on the lithium pack and this was clearly inadequate for the hottest of climates. It seems to be fine for just about every other climate, though. One hopes they'll have some sort of liquid cooling on the pack in the future. We'll see.

Cold weather isn't going to have the sort of long term wear/tear deficit as hot climates, but - as anyone who lives there will tell you - it slows down battery performance considerably and limits your potential range. Even before all the hot weather battery issues came up, Nissan announced that the 2013 Leaf would have better cold weather performance. Remember that your internal combustion engines are remarkable producers of excess heat. It takes very little to pipe that heat into the cabin via a simple radiator from the engine block. An EV, though, requires a separate electric heater to warm up the passenger compartment . . . and that's going to have to come from power produced from the main battery pack. Electric heaters, by their very nature, are inefficient and draw a lot of current. Cold weather EV drivers are big fans of things like heated seats and steering wheels, which are more efficient way of solving that problem.

Lot's of problems regarding increased range and more "normal" operating procedures are solved when you pair some sort of piston engine with the electric motor. Chevy's Volt is really the state of the art right now. You've mostly got a car that operates as a pure EV around town and then the gasoline motor is there for a backup. Unlike a conventional hybrid, the Volt's engine kicks it to recharge the battery and almost never engages the drive train . . . unless you want to (that's called "Mountain Mode" on the Volt.) The Volt's battery has a sophisticated liquid thermal management system that cools when it's hot, warms when it's cold. None of this come cheaply, though. The Volt is easily $10K more expensive than a comparably-equipped Leaf. But they've been selling very well for a car in this price range.

The promise of the Spark EV is that it will be using a battery that, allegedly, is good to go in heat far beyond temperatures humans could survive in . . . and also "crank" in Arctic-like conditions. Check out those A123 EXT links in my previous post, above. If this proves to be more than advertising hype, it means that a pack assembled with EXTs won't even require a liquid thermal management system to survive in the desert and still have good current draw in cold climates. A pack that doesn't need liquid thermal management drives down weight, space and cost. A 20kW pack in a car like the Spark EV would give it comparable range to the Leaf (EPA 73 miles.)

It's all still going to be more expensive, though, because lithium batteries are the most expensive thing in an electric car. So . . . start with a $13K Spark, take out the 4-banger and multi-speed transmission (be it auto or standard) and substitute a far less expensive electric motor with a dirt simple single speed transaxle. You've certainly saved a few thousand dollars there. But . . . now add a battery and the sophisticated electronics that control everything. Now you've got a car that's going to cost more like $22K to $25K (offset by various federal and state tax intensives to bring the purchase price back down some more again.) But the Spark EV would actually competitive at that price, since this effectively will be a 100mpg car. The motor promised for it is rated to be the equivalent of a 114hp gasoline engine, or about 20hp more than what's in a top-of-the-line Spark right now. This tells me that the Spark EV is destined to be a VERY quick and nimble performer. When you hit the pedal on any EV with a properly proportioned motor/chassis combination, it's a thing of joy. The torque is instantaneous and response is smoother than any piston engine available. The Leaf was very nice in this respect.

Most people who want EVs these days get them for a variety of ulterior reasons, though. There is immense satisfaction in driving a car that has absolutely no tailpipe emissions and is dead quiet. A pure EV is also mechanically far simpler and, over the long term, less expensive to repair and maintain. An EV is only as clean as the electricity that goes into it, though. Fortunately, the grid is getting cleaner every year and, if you have grid-tied solar photovoltaic panels on your house, you are literally driving on sunshine.

Benjamin Nead

Tucson, Arizona, USA

Link to post
Share on other sites

The shaped solar PV panel roof is a factory option on the Toyota Prius, Greg. But it's a very expensive add-on. It's probably about a $400 panel (if you were buy a flat one of the similar square footage) for something like $2000. These car rooftop panels probably don't provide the quantity of electricity needed to do much more than run climate controls to moderate the car's interior temperature while parked for a couple of hours . . . certainly not enough to even trickle charge the car's main battery. The Nissan Leaf has a little panel built into the rear hatch spoiler on its upscale model, but at around 18 Watts, it's little more than a fashion statement.

At least the Prius and Leaf panels appear to be a high quality mono-crystalline units. But these do also weigh more than the less efficient (albeit less expensive) amorphous thin film ones. Amorphous film panels also have an effective lifespan of just 5 to 7 years, while the better crystalline types may have a lifespan of 25 years. The other thing you have to consider is that, to get the full effect of any panel built into a car roof or hood, you would always have to be parked facing due south (when north of the Equator) at a moderate pitch in summer and on an even steeper incline in winter.

I've come to the conclusion that solar PV is best utilized in larger quantities, up on the roof of your house or workplace, properly oriented to the sun, tied to the grid and feeding non-polluting power. It makes a lot of sense to utilize it that way. But you really need that much square footage to make it all work. Check out Tesla's recently introduced solar Supercharger EVSEs for their new Model S sedan. I think they've got the right idea in how to integrate solar PV with electric cars . . .

http://www.plugincars.com/inside-scoop-tesla-super-smart-supercharger-network-124676.html

Benjamin Nead

Tucson Arizona, USA

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...